Oh, Please!
Interview with Kendall Lamb | vol. 002
Welcome to Oh, Please!—where reformed (or at least reforming) people-pleasers spill the tea on learning to live their own lives without apologizing for breathing. Breaking the habit of putting everyone else first is no joke, and I’m eternally grateful to these brave souls for sharing their journey back to sanity right here at DPP. Trust me, you don’t want to miss this series—subscribe and cheer on these heroes as they finally learn to say “no” without a panic attack!
We’re back with Oh, Please!
This week I am thrilled to introduce you to another AMAZING being, known as . I met Kendall over at
’s Letters From Love community, and when I tell you her presence feels like a mystical mermaid- fairy-goddess of Divinity, I don’t lie.Earlier this year I had a dream about Kendall. We have never met (yet), but she was so familiar to me in my dreams. We were in the open ocean, and a pod of orcas swam past us. I was PaNiCkInG, and she calmly reassured me that Orcas are part of the dolphin family, and we were safe. I woke up from that dream and took a walk, coming up at “Kendall St”. Immediately, I messaged Kendall about my dream, and GUESS WHAT: Turns out she is a certified mermaid. A marine biologist people. AND she confirmed that orcas really are part of the dolphin family!!! Mind = blown.
I am so pleased (get it- people pleasers?!) to share Kendall with you all.
Enjoy!
Welcome to DPP! Can you please share when you realized your "yes reflex" was becoming a problem? Where were you, and what was the incident that made you think, “Wait…why am I baking 100 cupcakes for Karen's third cousin's cat’s birthday?”
At the end of last year, I started a podcast, which felt incredibly vulnerable because I was talking to guests about how I had left my natal Christian path for a more expansive (read: woo-woo wonderous) spirituality of understanding who and what God is. This is not a thing I had done before, even though I’d been untangling my faith for a couple of decades, because I was so worried about my family’s reaction. (Ever the pleasing daughter/cousin/sister). Unsurprisingly, a couple of said family members challenged me on a few hot-button issues in the comment section of some social media posts I had created, and I found myself doing what I abhor the most, which is debating back and forth with them in the public square. I was so exhausted and utterly frayed by it, but I somehow felt that it was my obligation to explain myself, to help them understand. And then I remembered something my mom always says, which is, “You don’t have to show up to every fight you’re invited to, darling,” and I realized that I could just NOT respond. I made it really clear first to myself, and then to those individuals, that I don’t debate. I just won’t do it. I WILL discuss, which requires deep listening and seeking to understand without needing to agree, but I’m a hard “No” for the brutal verbal volleyball match that demands victory for one party and defeat for the other.
Do you have any Mentors/Gurus/Greek Philosophers who have supported you on your journey? Tell us about them.
Two individuals who have walked right beside me in my head and heart for many years, helping shape my understanding of self-love and Big Love and magic and wonder and what we’re all doing here, are the incomparable Rob Bell and Elizabeth Gilbert. Interestingly, they consider themselves soul-siblings, which is so obvious if you ever listen to them talk to one another (they met on tour with Oprah and have been fast friends ever since). They laugh often and loudly, and lean in and REALLY listen when people are baring their souls, and they have this twinkly-wink about them, like they’re in on some delightful cosmic joke, while also holding big, deep space for pain and grief and meaning-making. I just adore them, and have for going on twenty years now (holy smokes.) Miraculously, within the last two years, I have forged delicate personal connections with both of them, though even to say that feels awkward and cringey. Alas, I get to connect weekly with Liz over on Letters from Love with many of you beautiful souls (she reads and comments on as many letters as she is able to, which is so delightful and utterly generous), and I truly feel seen and loved by her there, a tiny miracle. Also, Rob and I just keep crossing paths, both online and in person, and he has been gracious enough to give me several heart-opening interviews. What a delightful surprise. They say never to meet your heroes, that you’ll always be disappointed, but I’ve been blown away by mine. What a gift those humans are.
How did it feel the first time you said ‘no’ and didn’t follow it up with an apology? Was it like discovering a superpower, or did it make you want to hide under a blanket?
It absolutely felt like discovering a superpower, although I was besieged by full body shaking right afterwards. There’s this scene in Back to the Future where the insufferable antagonist, Biff, is assaulting Lorainne Baines (MJ Fox’s mom, who is in high school at the time) in the back of his car and the usually timid, soft-spoken George McFly opens the door with his fists clenched and shakily but firmly says, “Leave her alone.” And I think after he fought Biff and pulled Lorainne to safety he probably had to sit down and shake it out, too, but he probably felt like a whole different person, standing up to the bully like that. When I was able to start saying, “Leave her alone” to people who were silencing the little girl inside of me, I found that saying “no” to the smaller, everyday stuff starting coming a whole lot easier.
When you feel yourself slipping back into people-pleasing tendencies, what do you do to reset, besides searching Zillow for the cheapest deserted island?
I find that when I start wanting to say yes to things that feel out of alignment, and I feel that familiar tug of regret or the voice in my head that is “should-ing” me, I just take a nice, long pause. I tell people, “Let me think about that.” Or, “I need to check in with my family,” or “I’ll look at my schedule and get back to you.” Which seems really simple and obvious, but sometimes I get caught up in other people’s urgency, and I need to remind myself that their desperation and desire for an immediate response is not my problem to solve. Usually if people need me right away I’ll just say no these days (barring an actual emergency, of course) because often those are red-flag individuals and I’m rarely regret distancing myself from them.
Since you stopped being a professional “yes-person,” what’s been your biggest self-care indulgence (and how much do you love it)
I used to feel so guilty being “unproductive” with my free time, especially as a mom, when there is always so much TO DO and free time is scarce. I’m beginning, slowly, slowly, to unapologetically embrace the art of doing nothing when I am able to find those moments. As my dear friend Winnie the Pooh says, “Doing nothing often leads to the very best kind of something.” I could not agree more, sweet little bear. Many of my favorite somethings have come after times of rest, where I make myself an extra coffee and do whatever I damn well please for as long as I am able, and make no justification to myself or anyone else for doing so.
If you could give one piece of advice to fellow recovering people pleasers, what would it be (besides faking bad cell reception)?
Go listen to episodes 356 and 357 of the We Can Do Hard Things Podcast called, How to say No and The Power of No to Protect Your Peace. They just about addressed every single thing I ever needed to hear about how to be firm and clear and relational when we say “no.” They fixed it! Takeaways: try saying “I don’t” instead of “I can’t” when saying no to something. One is a clear, pre-meditated boundary, and the other sounds apologetic and negotiable. (Think: “I don’t go out on weeknights.” vs. “I can’t go out this Thursday.”) It’s so simple, and so effective. Or you could just say what EB White apparently said when invited to join the Committe of Arts and Sciences by Eisenhower himself: “I must decline, for secret reasons.”
RAPID FIRE ROUND:
Kryptonite. What (or who) is yours when it comes to pleasing?
My five-year-old daughter. She owns me. I try so hard to hold firm boundaries with her (“Mommy doesn’t play imagination games at 6:30 in the morning”) and then she looks at me with her big blue eyes and says “pletty-pletty pleeeeeease, mama” with this very pathetic face and I melt. I think this is because she is an only child, and I am a crippling empath, and I want to be both mother and friend and sibling to her to fill in all the gaps so she is never lonely or bored or rejected, EVER, and then I have to remember Pooh’s advice about how good it is to have times when we are doing nothing and to trust that many good somethings will come about if I let her be bored and aimless from time to time. Sigh. I’m working on it.
Do you have a favorite Book or TV Show/Film? This is purely out of curiosity and does not need to be about people-pleasing or self-care.
So, so many! I am a glutton for a well-told story, on the screen or on the page. I am currently watching Shrinking, The Diplomat and The Great British Baking Show, and I just finished reading The Madonna Secret by Sofie Strand, which was absolutely gorgeous. Favorites of all time, though? Oof, that’s so hard. The Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon, both the books and the TV series, have my whole heart. I started reading the books back in high school and still love re-reading them at 43, so I think that really says something. James Alexander Malcom McKenzie Frasier will always be my first love. IYKYK.
Is there anything that you WISHED I had asked you, but didn't, that you would like to share here? Final words, advice, questions, comments, concerns? Anything goes.
Only this: I think that the more you peel away all the layers that you have accumulated over the years in an effort to be safe, and liked, and understood, the more you realize that true belonging only comes when we are brave enough to return to our naked beginnings and be unapologetically ourselves in the world. That’s when our full-body “yeses” and our shaky “no's” start to bring us back around to our beautiful origins, so that when we look in the mirror we can say, “Oh, I remember you.” That is when we realize we only ever wanted to belong to ourselves, and miraculously, we then find people who are drawn to us just exactly as we are. Magic.
How can we stay up to date with you from here?
Right here on Substack, of course! My newsletter is called Touching the Elephant, where I write my heart out in order to make sense of the world. It’s my favorite place to be. (And you’ll definitely also find me here in the comments whenever our amazing K writes anything at all, because I am ever the recovering people-pleaser, and she is my beloved guide.)
Isn’t she the greatest?!
Here’s her latest newlsetter- I hope to see you all over in Kendall’s comments soon!
Thanks so much for reading, & thank you Kendall, for taking the time to share with us.
Till next week,
K. Alexandra
P.S. If you would like to be interviewed I would LOVE to have you! Please submit your contact information (safely) here: Interview Me!
Great 👍 Must read 💎
Thank you so much for having me, K!! What a pleasure your questions are!! ❤️🙏❤️🙏 (And you, YOU ARE A DELIGHT.)